damerell: (roleplaying)
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posted by [personal profile] damerell at 04:52am on 29/03/2020
Not, alas, ancient (today we have the D&D 3rd Edition _Epic Level Handbook_) or related to encumbrance, but this struck me at the time so here it is.

The Epic Level Handbook is intended to extend 3rd Edition past the normal level cap of 20... well, indefinitely. The first chapter makes it pretty clear that epic [1] characters are not only the bee's knees and the dog's bollocks but, improbably, both at the same time. Names like Baba Yaga and Gandalf fall off the page. "Given time, they rival the powers of the gods", and indeed later on ascension to godhood is mentioned as a possible campaign goal.

There's an actually rather useful chapter about skills which emphasises the way epic characters can be supernaturally competent even without magic - example (high) difficulties are given for tasks like balancing on a cloud, squeezing through a space smaller than your head, or - a personal favourite - forging a document without having seen an example beforehand.

So far, so good. Now we come to a list of epic prestige classes. 3rd ed has prestige classes anyway; not classes you start with, like cleric or monster-whacker, but ones you qualify for by being special, like arcane archer or dwarven defender. The qualification criteria tend to be some mix of skills, alignment, being a dwarf, character factors not measured in game mechanics - but the epic prestige classes, of course, you just aren't allowed them at all unless you are over 20th level and hence as previously mentioned bestride the world like a colossus.

One of the epic prestige classes is the Union Sentinel, "a member of an elite police force that guards the demiplane-city of Union". They "patrol the city streets" and "are regular sights in Union, appearing in small units of two to five."

I don't know about you, but when I worked through the previous chapters, I did not expect one of the things epic-level characters to do to be "beat cop"; even given that the demiplane-city of Union is super-amazing, surely an epic character who wishes to defend justice can do it more effectively than pounding the pavement and, presumably, arguing the toss as to who gets to be the grizzled veteran in the squad today.

There's more of this stuff (in sharp contrast to, say, the divine emissary, who there's one of per god) - a legendary dreadnought might be employed by a prominent ruler or noble, "engaging in staged combats for money" (given that even a 21st-level character is expected to be worth about a million gold pieces, and presumably expects a worthwhile quid pro quo for each fight, what is this - professional wrestling for Croesus' court?)

I daresay Conan the Barbarian sometimes murders people for money, but can you imagine him collecting a wage packet afterwards? Elric of Melnibone clocking in late and being chewed out by his sergeant?

(Union is kind of silly; there's a 15th level fishmonger, raising the question of why he bothers selling fish, even given that he has a super-amazing interdimensional fish portal. I'm not making this up. There's a 10th-level innkeeper, too. The earlier chapters have a bunch of stuff about an epic campaign shouldn't be a regular campaign with bigger numbers which, apparently, the author of this chapter thought was complete rot.)

[1] as a side note, this book uses the word "epic" to mean "anything restricted to characters above level 20" and as a result I have now read the word so often it has lost all meaning.
There are 10 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
watervole: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] watervole at 10:21am on 29/03/2020
Sounds awfully boring. I much prefer playing characters at relatively low levels. The challenges are more interesting. I like problems that can't be solved with a bigger assault weapon.
damerell: (roleplaying)
posted by [personal profile] damerell at 11:26am on 30/03/2020
See, the rest of the book is full of advice about how to make things challenging for epic-level characters in spite of the vast array of tools at their command. One might still prefer a lower-level game - I think the last time I ran anything d20ish, characters were about 3rd level - but the authors have done their best to help DMs not just let the PCs steamroller everything.

... until, again, we get to the chapter on Union and conclude the person who wrote it really hated the rest of the book. The first NPC presented is a burglar. A really amazing one, obviously, with 34 levels in sneaky classes, who could pick any ordinary lock by coughing at it, but otherwise their writeup could really just as well be given to the 5th-level rogue who's wanted for a series of unexplained blaggings in a normal city.

... except that we're told that they have stolen thirty-four unique objects, and that the Union Sentinels suspect a pattern but have no definite proof that the robberies are linked, let alone any leads. How is that possible? It's not just the case that epic characters have access to a vast array of divination magic, but the book correctly points this out as a specific problem that the DM must think about!

Your 34th level thief can prevent being scryed on when they're robbing, and perhaps even block a programme of preemptive scrying of likely targets for theft - but you'd have to be a 34th-level spellcaster to stop divinations of the form "who stole the Orb of Zot?" from fingering you, and it's not clear _anyone_ can stop ones of the form "were these robberies committed by the same person?"
watervole: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] watervole at 04:12pm on 30/03/2020
With you all the way on divination. If he was proof against divination, then they would know from that fact alone that the robberies were linked!
emperor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] emperor at 10:35am on 29/03/2020
Does the fish portal have a suitably daft Proper Name? I feel Servus should have one...
damerell: (roleplaying)
posted by [personal profile] damerell at 11:39am on 30/03/2020
Alas, it is just "a specially designed _cubic gate_ that is attuned to several fishing vessels on several Material Planes as well as to a polar region on another Material Plane". (He gets ice for the fish from the polar region. He doesn't, say, sell ice to everyone when the city is in summer, even though he has access to unlimited quantities of the stuff... [1])

He doesn't truly understand what a valuable item it is, and got it from his father; the family has always used it for buying fish. Nevertheless, he "is wise enough to keep his methods a secret from prying eyes", and please see the rant above in another comment about how ubiquitous divination magic is a problem explicitly mentioned by the rest of the book. He cannot _possibly_ keep his mysterious fish source mysterious.

The other oddity is that he's not even a 15th level Commoner. He's a fighter 11th, some prestige class I don't recognise 4th. Now, we could make _some_ sense of this NPC if he was a retired adventurer who has inexplicably always wanted to be a fishmonger and so in spite of his vast wealth and ability is selling fish because that's what he loves... but no, this is the family trade. How did he _get_ to be a fighter 11th selling fish? Do the fishing boats sometimes send through a live octopus if they think he might be bored?

[1] I know, epic level spellcasters can create ice on demand... but also _Create Food and Water_ (and spells and wondrous items that create more sumptuous repasts) must be in near-infinite supply, so why is anyone buying fish to begin with?
hjdoom: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] hjdoom at 10:50am on 29/03/2020
I remember Alan Moore wrote a series called Top Ten about a city where literally everyone is a superhero as a satire on their increasing proliferation in comics that deals with the idea of how you go about dealing with crime in a chronically overpowered world.

I feel like someone with a very detailed knowledge of D&D systems could create a genuinely batshit version of Union where the police force is just one bored super-wizard solving every crime with a wish spell and the fishmonger serves fillets of Kraken since it’s the only fish that offers them a challenge. The price of a drink in the pub is reckoned not in gold but in kingdoms and the bouncer is a minor god that has fallen on hard times. There’s a petting zoo full of dragons and their keeper is the only person alive who knows what the plural of tarrasque is.
damerell: NetHack. (normal)
posted by [personal profile] damerell at 11:43am on 30/03/2020
_City of Heroes_ sometimes gently poked fun at itself there - because like any MMO the streets were full of monster spawns to fight, but (obviously) these are things like muggers and gangsters, you'd have NPCs complaining about the sheer frequency with which their handbags got stolen and returned by passing capes.

The silly version of Union would be much better. I wouldn't feel it was expected to make sense.
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
posted by [personal profile] davidgillon at 01:39pm on 29/03/2020
I can't help feeling a 'Union Sentinel' should be getting the orc cannon-fodder to strike for better pay, and a health and safety audit of their local dungeon.
damerell: NetHack. (normal)
posted by [personal profile] damerell at 11:44am on 30/03/2020
Do you know, in spite of the infinite Planes etc etc, I can't think of a single example of organised labour in 3rd Edition? Hm.
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
posted by [personal profile] davidgillon at 04:30pm on 30/03/2020
Orc Hordes of the World, Unite!

So litter mates, come rally,
And the Final Battle let us face.
The Internationale
Unites the Orken race.

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