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posted by [personal profile] damerell at 07:19am on 08/12/2009
Serious:

On balance, I like Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, but...

The obvious complaint is that what is done for comic relief is wince-inducingly awful.

Besides that, though, he's at his worse when Tolkien shines through. It's bad when JRRT's lines are delivered ineptly, but in a sense it's worse when his lines are delivered well and stand out from the rest of the lines from the character. Eowyn's actress _can_ do Tolkien's Eowyn and sometimes she does, and compared to that the rest looks so weak.

Class War:

Tolkien is not without his faults, though, and one that is apparent in either version is that Samwise Gamgee would be ten times the Ringbearer Frodo is. But he is lower class and so can't do it. Personally, I think Gandalf sends him because he knows in desperate straits Sam _will_ shiv Frodo to save the world. Sam is the only person who ever gives up the Ring without coercion. He could drop it.

40-odd people in a previous poll say I'm a boy version:

[Poll #1496119]

Practical:

Dear filmmakers: I am not a soldier, and I never have been one. Nevertheless, my understanding is that armour is and was worn because it provides a modicum of protection from sharp, pointy, and/or bludgeoning objects. As such, it would be nice if occasionally in your productions we saw it doing so. Or, indeed, we ever saw it doing so. Besides bits of LOTR I am particularly thinking of the end of The Last Samurai where apparently men in armour with big fucking swords are no more deadly then unarmoured men with fixed bayonets who never train to use them.

PPPS:

As I understood it Minas Tirith and Osgiliath are more than 500 yards apart.
There are 23 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
zotz: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] zotz at 08:11am on 08/12/2009
I have heard it maintained more than once that that is indeed the point of the book, and I've read a Tolkein quote to that effect. There's a reasonable point of view that Sam is actually the book's hero. He certainly gets the last word.
simont: A picture of me in 2016 (Default)
posted by [personal profile] simont at 11:15am on 08/12/2009
That puts me in mind, more than anything else, of the claim that the (real) Star Wars trilogy is really told from the POV of the two droids.

I'm not really sure that was a good thing, because now my brain is transplanting all sorts of Artoo and Threepio's dialogue on to Frodo and Sam.
zotz: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] zotz at 02:06pm on 08/12/2009
Well, a supporting argument for that is it being partly based on a Kurosawa film told from the point of view of the two peasants the droids were based on. So you can have Frodo and Sam spouting mediaeval Japanese now, if you like.
 
posted by [identity profile] grumpyolddog.livejournal.com at 05:47pm on 08/12/2009
That would rock. I feel some redubbing coming on.
 
posted by [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com at 08:51am on 10/12/2009
Indeed, the Jackson LOTR _has_ some Star Wars dialogue in, which is generally painfully awful in context.
 
posted by [identity profile] tigerfort.livejournal.com at 01:10pm on 08/12/2009
There's also Sam's comment about "I can carry you and it too", which I'd rather thought was intended to carry wider significance than straight physical truth. (He does literally carry Frodo at the time, but he's been doing it metaphorically all along.)
 
posted by [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com at 08:52am on 10/12/2009
If the Ring's weight is purely a psychological effect, perhaps it should have been piggybacks all the way to Mount Doom.
 
posted by [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com at 05:51pm on 08/12/2009
That's a bit odd in the light of the way everyone else is upper-class and furthermore part of the true bloodline, in the way that Aragorn is more qualified to run Gondor than Faramir is even though Aragorn was bushwhacking while Faramir was, er, learning how to rule Gondor, because of who Aragorn's great-grandfather was.
zotz: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] zotz at 06:23pm on 08/12/2009
Well, as quoted in thee ackurssed Witchipedia,

"My Sam Gamgee is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognised as so far superior to myself" (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, ed. Humphrey Carpenter).

See also here for Tolkein referring to Sam as the "chief hero" of the story.
 
posted by [identity profile] unwholesome-fen.livejournal.com at 06:52pm on 08/12/2009
Surely Aragorn is more qualified because he understands what a king is for - to defend the people. Faramir is too tied up with family issues, honour etc.
 
posted by [identity profile] alextiefling.livejournal.com at 09:00pm on 08/12/2009
Exactly. Aragorn learned mainly from Elrond, whose domain is a tight-knit community that he leads as a friend and guide. Faramir learned from Denethor, who (even in Tolkien's version) is a cold, distant bureaucrat who doesn't connect properly with his people. It's remarkable that Boromir and Faramir turned out even as well-adjusted as they did.
 
posted by [identity profile] unwholesome-fen.livejournal.com at 06:47pm on 08/12/2009
The point of the book is surely what makes someone suitable to be a ruler - in particular what makes Aragorn suitable. The contrast between Sam and Frodo is some of the same questions played out on a smaller scale.
 
posted by [identity profile] angoel.livejournal.com at 08:20am on 08/12/2009
While Minas Tirith and Osgiliath are more than 500 yards apart, there is a weird optical illusion which makes them seem closer if the weather conditions are correct.
 
posted by [identity profile] friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com at 09:08am on 08/12/2009
Miranda Otto had plenty to say about the bad comedy scenes, particularly the rightly aborted "stew" scene. The horror, the horror. I <3 her.

It's good he chucks her, though, cos she would only have been unhappy with the broody fucker (and the age gap might have been a bit much in the end - what, 60 years or something??), and she gets Faramir instead, who is Teh Hott Geekboy and all-round awesome. I'd pick Faramir in a heartbeat, no question.
 
posted by [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com at 09:20am on 08/12/2009
I'm glad you mention it, actually, because, hello, Aragorn is an old campaigner and he damn well ought to be willing to eat anything on campaign short of horseshit, and also the "she can't cook joke" is hideously overused, but..

... of course it was good for _her_, particularly if it's book-Faramir who isn't a dweeb, but my point is _he_ is an idiot.
 
posted by [identity profile] friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com at 09:51am on 08/12/2009
Oh yeah, Aragorn is a fool alright. No denying. But hey, if a person just doesn't make you feel it, what's to do? Esp if you have a thing for pointy ears.

The cooking joke was beyond sexist, I'm so glad it was cut.
 
posted by [identity profile] beckyc.livejournal.com at 09:52pm on 08/12/2009
he damn well ought to be willing to eat anything on campaign short of horseshit

That fell flat with me as well, for similar reasons.

(Being a vegetarian, I'm used to having to go hungry and so I'm used to having to eat *whatever* is available that won't make me ill, no matter how bad. I simply can't imagine turning my nose up at something just because it happened to taste terrible. Better terrible food than going hungry!)
 
posted by [identity profile] grumpyolddog.livejournal.com at 11:45am on 08/12/2009
You're shitting me; she's clearly a bunny-boiler. I'd steer well clear.
 
posted by [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com at 05:57pm on 08/12/2009
At this point he has a life expectancy of a week, tops. I don't see it as a serious issue.
 
posted by [identity profile] lawliette.livejournal.com at 12:59pm on 08/12/2009
LOL you can rant about this to me on the 27th at Forbidden Planet (and gosh, i hope you do, cause i won't be able to argue back, knowing very little about LOTR). Think of an awesome tearoom we can go get a cuppa, kk?
 
posted by [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com at 06:00pm on 08/12/2009
We should figure out how to get in touch with each other on the day. I'm going to get to London about 3pm, but I guess you'll be jetlagged anyway...
 
posted by [identity profile] tigerfort.livejournal.com at 05:23pm on 08/12/2009
I think the comparison is a little unfair in one important way, though. Gandalf says that the ring will get harder to part with the longer someone has held it - Sam has it in his possession for a few hours, while Frodo has had it in his pocket for most of the last twenty years, and used it repeatedly. Which isn't to say I disagree with the central point; even on first contact, Frodo is probably inferior to Sam as a bearer, but he'd certainly be better able to ditch it the evening Bilbo gives it to him than after he's carried the wretched thing across Mordor.

(Also, I didn't fill in the poll; presumably that was [livejournal.com profile] stripey_cat:)
 
posted by [identity profile] tigerfort.livejournal.com at 05:20pm on 06/01/2010
Actually, further to this:

(Book) Frodo in fact gives the ring up voluntarily not once, but twice. Once to Gandalf (who chucks it in the fire), then a second time to Tom Bombadil (who puts it on and fails to disappear). Of course, he also offers to give it away both at the council and to Galadriel, but since he isn't asked to do so it's impossible to tell how easy he would find it to go through with.

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